#110 - David Sutcliffe - He Had Everything In Hollywood, Then Walked Away

David Sutcliffe opens up about walking away from Hollywood after achieving the very success most people spend their lives chasing. He unpacks the illusion behind fame, the emotional cost of performance, and why intuition has guided every major pivot in his life. This is a raw conversation about identity, truth, and the courage to choose a path that actually feels real.

Timestamps: 
00:00 How Herniated Discs Launched David's Acting Career
03:53 Pursuing Acting Full-Time
12:48 Parents' Impact On Acting & Life
15:57 Being Performative & Finding What Makes You Feel Alive
18:38 The Deeper Meaning Of Playing Christopher Hayden
27:00 "I Don't Want This."
34:10 Giving Up Acting
40:24 Explaining Core Energetics
47:57 David's Personal Experiences With This Work
51:16 Living In Isolation
54:50 Relationship With Faith
57:49 What The Future Holds
1:03:48 Connect With David Sutcliffe

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Transcript

David Sutcliffe opens up about walking away from Hollywood after achieving the very success most people spend their lives chasing. He unpacks the illusion behind fame, the emotional cost of performance, and why intuition has guided every major pivot in his life. This is a raw conversation about identity, truth, and the courage to choose a path that actually feels real.

speaker-0 (00:00.034)

David Sutcliffe, welcome to the show. I am so pumped to have you here. why? Well, the big thing is, and this is where I want to start. We have similar backs. I had terrible chronic back pain, terrible herniated discs about five years ago. Wow. Completely changed my life. How did your herniated disc shake up your identity?

speaker-1 (00:03.544)

Thank you for having me.

speaker-1 (00:08.376)

Why are you pumped to have me?

speaker-1 (00:26.156)

Well, I was an athlete and I had back pain, a little bit in high school, but it hit me hard in my second year at university. played varsity basketball for the University of Toronto, which is Canadian basketball. It's like playing like low division one, but like Lehigh or something. Wow, Yeah, we weren't, know, so it wasn't like Duke, but you know, we were okay. But I, yeah, I don't know what happened.

but I came down with this chronic back issue and it sidelined me and I couldn't get out of it. And so that's actually what led me to acting. Because I was living with a guy who was a playwright and he'd this playwriting contest and I had all this free time suddenly because I was no longer playing basketball. And I asked if I could help out with the lights. I was an English Lit major, so was interested in that kind of thing.

And when I was in high school, people always, the teachers always used to ask me to audition for the plays because I was very good at reading aloud, Shakespeare and all of that. And so I had an intuition that I could be an actor, that I could do it. And so this, yeah, just became the opportunity. And I did this play with this guy that I was living with and caught the bug and that was it. So yeah, my back pain ended up leading to...

complete change in the direction of my life.

speaker-0 (01:53.068)

Yeah, I mean, that's what I find so interesting. I mean, you ultimately got out of acting because of a lack of fulfillment. And the way that I see lack of fulfillment, I'm like, okay, that's like some type of emotional or mental discomfort and pain. But physical pain was the spark that got you into it. Yeah. In those beginning days, did acting give you a similar feeling and energy to basketball? Yeah.

speaker-1 (02:17.578)

I mean, you go to practice and then there's the game. You rehearse and there's the show. To me, it was the exact same thing. There's a performance element to it. There's an audience there. You're working stuff out. And so the muscle felt very similar to me. Obviously the execution is different, but yeah, I I understood acting right away. I understood that it was storytelling.

And I guess I was always kind of a ham and felt comfortable with attention on me to a degree. And I had an intuition, as I said, that I could do it. But then there's that and then actually the skills of being a good actor because it is a craft and you have to be able to show up day after day after day and do it on command. And that's its own thing. So I worked really hard to.

developed that over time. yes, the feeling that I got from both basketball and acting was very similar. It gave me lot of fulfillment and excitement and energy.

speaker-0 (03:31.458)

How quickly or slowly did your mindset evolve when it came to acting from, okay, this is something that I'm doing now to replace my time with basketball to, okay, now I'm pursuing this as a livelihood.

speaker-1 (03:44.438)

Almost right away, not as a livelihood, but people started telling me right away, it's like, you're really good. Like there's something about you, you've got it basically. But that was, okay, that doesn't mean that I'm gonna be on TV. In my mind, that didn't mean anything other than, okay, I'm in college, I'm a good actor in college, I've got it. But I didn't think that was gonna translate to me being on TV.

speaker-0 (04:10.414)

That was like other actors telling you that direct

speaker-1 (04:12.366)

Other actors, directors, people in the audience, you know, not just my mother.

speaker-0 (04:17.236)

Yeah, exactly.

speaker-1 (04:19.341)

So I started getting some attention, some, you reflections like, you're good at this. You're compelling to watch. There's something you're doing that's interesting that makes you stand out. And then I had another actor who had an agent and had been in a movie. I did like a little theater thing with him and he said, you need to get an agent and get going. But so I did and I was 22. you know, you know, I guess about the right time to get started.

And I didn't work for a year. I didn't get anything, even though I had this agent, but it was just like commercials. And I didn't really know what I was doing. And it was like, do I want to be on commercials? I didn't even know. The whole business was kind of strange to me. And then that agent dumped me, actually, if you can believe it. And then I regrouped and still continued to do theater, local theater in Toronto, and then got another agent and then started booking some commercials, some things here and there, bit parts.

But then I had a friend group and everybody was trying to, you know, make it. in our 20s. I was an actor. There's directors. There's writers. And a couple of guys made independent films. This was in the day of everybody was trying to make an independent film, a la Quentin Tarantino and Jim Jarmusch and others. And I was in, I had parts in two of them. And in one of them in particular, something came through.

Like it was like one of those things where I saw it. I was like, and I saw it on camera. I was like, I look like a guy who's in TV and movies. Like if I'm, I, and people could see it. So I took that tape and went to New York. got an agent and then I started working almost right away.

speaker-0 (06:07.2)

Yeah, what was that? Waiting table.

speaker-1 (06:09.88)

That was five, six, seven years of waiting tables. So from 22, didn't really start working. Like I didn't really make it until I was 27.

speaker-0 (06:22.7)

Can the feeling waver at all?

speaker-1 (06:25.39)

I had an intuition that I could do it. I had a feeling that it was gonna take time. I am kind of slow. Like it takes me time to figure things out and really get it in my body. So I had patience with myself, but also I was starting to get a little bit nervous. mean, 26, 27 years old, you're waiting tables. It's not a good feeling, but.

I know. mean, burn all the bridges behind you. That's sort of my attitude with life. Like you have to go all in on something and have no backup plan. And that's really how I was approaching it. And going to New York at 27 was the, this was it. I knew that that, okay, this is the last chance. But it worked out right away.

speaker-0 (07:13.016)

So what was that first role that gave you that confidence? Like, all right, like I'm here, I'm on the path now.

speaker-1 (07:20.67)

I, there was a couple things, I started auditioning in New York and I remember the moment when a casting director, the CBS casting director pulled me into her office and said, listen, there's three projects, they're all interested in you, which one would you like to do? I was like, which one would I like to do? It was so shocking to me, this idea, like I was in demand, what?

speaker-0 (07:21.39)

Hmm.

speaker-1 (07:48.766)

And that moment I knew something had changed and people were telling me, you know, you can do comedy, you can do drama, like you're very castable. And so I was like, okay, this, okay, sure, great, I don't know. And then about a year after that, I got a pilot for NBC called Cold Feet. And it was one of the hottest pilots in town at the time.

coveted part for the lead and I beat everyone out and got it. And there was something in the way that I approached the audition and showing up for it and just the whole, like that I was very, there was a knowing, like I was relaxed in it. I had this self confidence. I don't know where it came from, but you know, sometimes shit's just yours. It was like that. And then, you you start to look around and

the mystery of it sort of dissolves away. Like you realize everybody's just human. Cause when you go to Hollywood, it's like, my God, I'm in Hollywood. And you walk into the Warner Brothers studio and you're standing in front of these executives and it can be intimidating, but it didn't take me long to realize, these are just people like me and it's all fine. And I have a particular skillset here and I look a certain way, which is castable.

I just started to see the business of it and I saw that I had a place in it and that I could do it.

speaker-0 (09:23.854)

So that wasn't the peak of your success or external accolades. And I want to talk about that. would you say that that chapter was peak fulfillment where you had.

speaker-1 (09:35.118)

Yeah, I mean, it's exciting, right? You know, like you're striving. I'm waiting tables for seven years and all of a sudden you're in Hollywood and people are offering you all kinds of jobs and you're on television. You're making all kinds, you're making fucking crazy money. I went from making like, you know, tips to suddenly I'm making $30,000 a week. You know what I mean? This is like 20, 30 years ago. I mean, just, it's crazy. It's like.

You don't even know what that means. didn't even know what that means. I didn't grow up with any money. so the most, know, I always had money in my pocket, waiting tables, whatever. I didn't feel poor. I could have what I wanted, but suddenly you're making like $30,000 a week. I didn't even know what it meant. And it was hard for me to know like, can I buy a house? I, well, how much car can I afford? And the only thing I really bought, I went and bought a $40,000 GMC Yukon loaded. yeah.

but that was about it. But so yeah, it was incredibly exciting. what also, mean, all of a sudden women are coming at you like fucking crazy. I mean, that was a whole, you're in LA and it's like supermodels or you're at a party and Pam Anderson is like checking you out. Getting checked out by Pam. I she was the it girl at the time.

speaker-0 (10:55.554)

Little bit of a different environment than Toronto basketball.

speaker-1 (10:58.882)

Totally, totally. I mean, while you, you know, there's basketball groupies, but this was a whole other level. So my head was spinning and the truth is I did kind of spin out. I couldn't hold it. I didn't, I wasn't emotionally secure enough to really handle it. And there's a lot of temptation. There's a lot of unconsciousness. And so when I look at somebody like Leonardo DiCaprio,

who had massive success right out of the gate, a very young guy. And, you know, he had his moments, obviously, drinking and partying and all of that. But, you know, he's what, 50 now and he's got his shit together. And that's not easy to do, to handle that level of fame and success and money and attention and projection. And nobody really sees you, you're a commodity. And to be able to hold onto yourself and go about your business and do your work, like,

I have a lot of admiration for him for being able to do that. And I mean, I didn't obviously have anywhere near that level, but I had a small level of it and it was hard. It's really hard to hold that kind of attention and all the images that we have around it and everything coming at you and agents and managers, everybody's blowing smoke up your ass. And to be able to hold onto reality is not easy.

speaker-0 (12:26.776)

How do you think your parents impacted your acting career?

speaker-1 (12:29.922)

Well, other than being supportive, they were, I was a pretty, you know, self-sufficient kid. Like I was, nobody ever had to ask me to do my homework. I took care of my business. So I was, you know, whether it was basketball practice or any sports team or all of my homework and getting my essays done on time, like I was pretty self-sufficient, self-reliant. And

So early on, they left me alone. And so when I made the decision to become an actor, they were like, okay, great, good luck. I mean, my mom was very supportive and my dad was too. I think they just trusted that I knew what I was doing and that somehow some way that it would work out for me. So I had a lot of support from them.

speaker-0 (13:24.75)

You think the deeper feeling of why you liked acting is because it felt like sort of that alone environment, like moving forward or just like sort of being off on your own again and taking that path. I guess like needing to be self-sufficient to be able to make it.

speaker-1 (13:37.4)

What do mean alone in virus?

speaker-1 (13:45.262)

I think I became inactive for a couple of reasons. Well, one, my parents split when I was six. And I think that there was an unconscious desire to be seen, to be recognized.

speaker-1 (14:02.158)

It's a neurotic impulse. But also there was some creative expression. I grew up as an athlete. I don't see myself as a creative type, as an artist. I had friends around me that were that, but I didn't identify as that. And so this was the first time that I started to feel myself creatively and started to have opinions creatively. And that was really exciting for me. I was unsure at first.

at first, but over time I started to realize that I actually had really good creative instincts and that I enjoyed it. And so a lot of it was finding my identity as an artist. And also like, don't know. I mean, I don't know why do we do what we do and we can talk about it, we can speculate, but I I talk about this all the time. I moved to Mexico two years ago.

and we were there for a year and a half. just got back to Austin and people ask me all the time, why'd you move to Mexico? I'm like, I don't know. Why'd you move back? We can the story. there's a story I can tell you, but do I really know? No. So why did I become an actor? I mean, yeah, I just gave you reasons, but I don't know. Cause I wanted to. Yeah. I mean, it's kinda.

speaker-0 (15:08.038)

Exactly.

speaker-0 (15:21.582)

you seem like somebody who's like you said driven by intuition and right driving feeling and I on the same way I think a lot of the time you can't bring language to it that's right it's just like there's an energy I feel yeah I'm just gonna go after it yeah

speaker-1 (15:35.65)

Yeah, that's why, you know, not to go meta, like sometimes I feel on podcasts, I mean, you're doing a great job. I think you're a great interviewer asking great questions, but it's like, there is a like, explain, explain, explain. And there's like a part of me that I feel myself disassociate because I'm like, I don't fucking know. I have to make up some fucking story.

about my life, about why I'm doing what I'm doing. And it's, there's always some part of me that's like, this is bullshit. It's performative. And then I watch it and it's, occasionally I say something that's interesting and some people are really good at it. And I appreciate, there's some great storytellers and I'm okay, I guess, but yeah, there's some, I don't know, there's some tension there. I mean, it's just not on podcasts, it's on social media.

speaker-0 (16:08.46)

Yeah, it's performative.

speaker-1 (16:30.402)

It's everywhere where there's this, and I think that's one of the things that ultimately caused me to leave acting was you have moments of deep connection in a scene, right? Like particularly when I did Gilmore Girls, like that was a very, very well-written show and the actors on the show were incredible. Like Lauren Graham was an incredible actor. So every time I sat,

down across from her to do a scene. Like I knew shit was gonna fly. You know, it was gonna be exciting. We were gonna create something together. I was gonna be at my edge. And that was fun, but that's not generally what it is unless you're, you know, Tom Cruise and you get the best scripts all the time. A lot of it is schlock and you're just getting through it. And it is performative. And I think that got to me after a while.

And when I discovered this core energetics therapy that I do in the group setting, it was like, this is where I feel more alive, where I feel like there's my creativity and my intuition. Intuition can really come out without restriction and I can get into the deeper layers of truth that I wanna get into that I think I was striving for in the acting but wasn't necessarily getting.

speaker-0 (17:57.122)

So a little side note, I give you full permission if I ask you something and you're like, dude, that's a performative question. I'm not fucking answering that. I give you full permission to tell me that.

speaker-1 (18:06.35)

It's almost impossible not to have those kind of questions in a podcast, but okay, you know, for sure. appreciate Hold me up. I will call.

speaker-0 (18:16.526)

I want to dive deeper into Christopher Hayden a little bit for Gilmore Girls. And more so on the therapeutic side, something that you Did you watch the show? I did not, but my sister's obsessed with it.

speaker-1 (18:27.342)

Your sister's obsessed with it, okay. What's your sister's name? Ali. Hi, Ali. Is she Team Chris or Team Luke?

speaker-0 (18:36.02)

My relationship with her relationship with Gilmore Girls is pretty surface level. So I'm not too sure, but she would be able to, I must've been like five or six years old at the time. And like you could like give her a line from like an episode and no contacts or anything. And she'd be able to be like, season blank, episode blank. So she was deep into it. But I want to dive deeper, I guess into the therapeutic side of

the character. mean, something that you mentioned earlier was that your parents split when you were six years old. Um, and then when you're older at 18, then your mom and your stepfather split. So you have an interesting relationship with fathers. What was it like committing to a role like that where it's a guy who's an unreliable father?

speaker-1 (19:31.052)

Well, it was in the back of my mind, all of my own personal history, but I didn't think about it that much really until later, because yes, my father wasn't around and then I had a stepfather, but then there was a bad breakup between my mom and him where I felt extremely betrayed by my stepfather.

And it was a deep wound where I was like, you know, did not trust men at all. And, you know, maybe myself. So, yeah, coming into the show, playing that character, I think there was a lot that was just in me emotionally that I was bringing to it that I wasn't even.

I think that's what happens. that's why I was perfect for the part in some way. There was just some, something in my being, in my relationship to men. Maybe the shame, I could relate to the shame of the father not having the strength to really be there for his child. And...

how that impacts them and then the overcompensation for that. All of that felt, know, again, it was buried in the unconscious, but it was all there. I related to it, not just through, you know, the experiences that I had with the father figures, but also through my own shame in being feeling rejected.

by the father figures in my life, that there was some part of me that was not enough or else they wouldn't have left. I was unconscious of that again. And so I think that probably showed up in how I played Christopher Hayden, which is that I felt like I wasn't enough of a man for either Lorelei or Rory.

speaker-1 (21:49.142)

as much as I wanted to be. they wanted that from me, but I didn't, I couldn't show up in that way. And so there's this constant disappointment, but it's really just about his unreliability, like most people. It's really just about shame.

speaker-0 (22:08.716)

so fascinating to get that deeper context. Like I said, I didn't watch the show, but to be able to understand like somebody's personal relationship with that character on a much deeper level. I mean, was it a cathartic experience at all playing that character?

speaker-1 (22:24.302)

I wouldn't say cathartic, it was...

I was kind of sad actually. He was a sad guy. He was trying, but he could never quite get it. And so there was a striving that he could never fulfill and whatever he was wanting, he couldn't get. So I think in the end, was, I mean, it was on a personal level, like going to work and all of that.

It was fun, but also shows like that have a life of their own. Like when you step onto the set, there's something that happens where you're in an alternative reality. And yes, you know that it's not reality, but it is reality. Like you're living and interacting in this way and it has an impact on you. so, you you go through the experience of the character. So there was a lot of, yeah, sadness and a feeling of separation.

of not belonging, of not being enough, in terms of my relationship with the show. Like even just yesterday, something came up. So I get these invites, do you wanna come to this Gilmore Girls festival or whatever? which I never go, but there are gatherings and it's rare that I'm invited.

And in part, it's probably because of my right wing views. It's my pro-Trump stance. Like, just fuck that. But it is kind of weird. It's like, there was a big gathering of the cast. I don't know when it was, like 10 years ago or something. And I wasn't invited. But then there was, was it my manager? There was all kinds of weird shit that went on behind the scenes.

speaker-1 (24:24.29)

but there's this feeling that I have regardless that I'm separate. So even though I did the show and I was an important significant character, there's a way in which I have nothing to do with it anymore. I'm not invited to any Comic-Cons, to sign autographs, like nothing. So in a way it's like I'm separate, which the truth is if they did invite me, which I mean, I got this one invite, I would say no.

So it doesn't really matter, but it's like I would like the fuck

speaker-0 (24:55.29)

You want the look?

speaker-1 (24:56.654)

What the look? You know, I wanna go to Comic Con and make five grand selling fucking pictures, but I wouldn't do it anyway. So it's a weird thing. It's like this perfection, but yeah, don't, yeah, the whole thing is, I don't know what to make of it, to be honest. And I don't know what any of those people think of me, because it's pretty public. You know, my stance, the politics. I know I did Scott Peterson's podcast who played Luke. had a podcast where he was,

watching all the episodes and then he would talk to different cast members about it and we recorded one and it never got aired and I know why and there was other people that reach out to me and then they'd be like, actually we can't air this or we can't talk to you because you're I guess a bad person before not I don't know what I don't know why I'm a bad person but I'm a bad person in the eyes of a lot of these people.

speaker-0 (25:43.319)

There we go.

speaker-0 (25:51.278)

I want to bring another one of your characters into the mix here. And this is a show that I have watched and I didn't even realize it was you because you look so different now. But Friends, you were on an episode of Friends and that was pivotal experience for you because you've shared in the past that you're on the set of Friends, you're seeing these big actors, they're making $750,000 per episode and your gut instinct getting back into that

intuition you're feeling, you have the thought, I don't want this. And

speaker-1 (26:23.971)

Yeah.

speaker-0 (26:27.758)

So I looked up because I wanted to like piece it together and put a timeline together. So that episode of Friends that you were on, that originally aired in November of 2000. And then your first appearance of Gilmore Girls, that aired February of 2001. So just three months between you being like, I don't want this.

speaker-1 (26:55.875)

Yeah.

speaker-0 (26:57.398)

And then this next chapter unfolds where you would get the most success and sort of like really cement yourself and your identity as an actor.

speaker-1 (27:07.82)

Yeah.

speaker-0 (27:10.68)

So like when you're going through Gilmore Girls, obviously you have the deeper personal story behind it of, you know, not having a father and...

speaker-1 (27:18.798)

Well, Friends was, listen, Friends was dumb and Gilmore Girls was not dumb. What I didn't want was, you know, it's absolutely fascinating because why wouldn't you want to be on Friends, right? And when I say dumb, it's like, I mean, it was well done. all, mean, that was, I was blown away at how good they were. I couldn't get over how, and by the way, Joey's the best. Joey,

speaker-0 (27:30.286)

Still fascinating though.

speaker-1 (27:48.716)

is that it's hands down. when you see it all happening in person, you're just like, the best comedic actor. what he's doing is so, he makes it look so easy, but it's so hard and to watch them rehearse through the week and to watch him just kind of walk through it. And you're like, this isn't funny. This isn't funny. This isn't funny. And then the night they go to shoot, he just like turns it on and you cannot believe how fucking funny he is.

speaker-0 (27:54.413)

actor

speaker-1 (28:19.15)

I was amazed, but they were all like that. They were all really, really incredible and working at a high level. But what it was is there was a machine around it. within that bubble, there's all this fakeness and ass kissing and weirdness, because there's so much money, there's so much fame, there was so much attention on it. It's almost impossible for it to stay grounded in some way. And I think that's what I was responding to.

this veil of artificiality and over-enthusiasm and ass kissing. There was something about it I didn't really like. But again, on the individual level, I thought everybody was great. But yeah, I just had this feeling. It's like, whatever this is, I don't want this. Even at 750,000 an episode, was like, can't do this. I don't wanna show up like that. I can't be that...

And it's not me, you know, it's just like, was also that. Which was terrifying because that was sort of the track that I was on. I look like the people on Friends. I look like a guy who could be on Friends, right? Or some other show that would be like Friends. Gilmore Girls was different because it was, it was kind of edgier in a way. Even though was a family show underneath it, there's a lot of darkness. And Amy Sherman-Paladino, the woman who runs the show, she's like, something about her.

Like she's got an edge and Lauren Graham too. So you walk on the set, it was a different vibe. Like these were serious people, serious actors. And even though the frame of the show was very family, underneath it, there was a lot of, there was a lot of intelligence and again, a lot of complexity in terms of the light and the dark. And I think that's why the show is, remains so popular.

because it's not artificial. It's not just like, that happy family show. No, there's some weird, dark, deep things that happen. And I could feel that. that was, it was exciting to me. I knew I was part of something that was unique and interesting. And I felt it right away. And we were, I always tell the story. We were working on Warner Brothers Lot right beside the West Wing, which was the hottest show in TV.

speaker-1 (30:43.182)

but where's the West Wing now? Nobody watches the West Wing. And I remember thinking like, we're better than the West Wing. West Wing had all the accolades, but I just remember thinking like, we're better. We're trying to do better than they're trying to do what they're trying to do. Obviously it's very different shows. And I think, yeah, that's born out. Like Gilmore Girls is, I don't know.

most, one of the most popular television shows in history, like Star Trek, like what else? Gilmore Girls, like top five of all time.

speaker-0 (31:23.604)

So I guess we can say when you're on Friends, you have the thought of like, don't want this type of acting, but this other acting interests me when it comes to Gilmore Girls. When was the first moment where you had the realization of just acting in general? Okay, like I don't want this.

speaker-1 (31:44.174)

I mean, I've told this story in a lot of different ways. I I like the acting, but yeah, there was a part of me that just grew out of it. And it was probably in my early 40s. I was doing a show called Cracked in Toronto. was a CBC, Canadian broadcasting company show. And I could feel, yeah, it just wasn't.

that exciting for me anymore. And I wanted to do other things. And in large part, as I said earlier, the work that I got into the cornergetic stuff and especially in the groups was just so, there was so much energy and aliveness in it and in a kind of unlimited creativity that that's just where my focus was. Like that's just what I wanted to do. I didn't know that I could make a living at it or I didn't.

I mean, I guess I knew I could make a living at it, but like, I didn't know what that looked like and did I really want to commit to that life? Like that was always the struggle for me. I mean, it still is a struggle for me. I don't really even know if that's really what I want to be doing. I mean, I've fallen into it and I'm good at it, but, and I enjoy the workshops, but there's another part of me, it's just like, I don't know, do I even want to be doing this?

speaker-0 (33:02.348)

want to get deeper into the core energetics, but before that, I mean, you had the initial intention that...

speaker-1 (33:08.862)

I guess to answer your question, I just grew out of it. I just grew out of the acting. It was a chapter. was like, yeah, I I enjoyed it. was grateful for it. I met all these incredible people. I guess the answer to your question, I was in a scene with Matthew Modine, I'll remember this, and Matthew Modine is a fucking monster, okay? There's a reason that guy was a huge movie star back in the day and why he's still popular is, you know,

you're in a scene with that guy and then you realize like what it means to be like really, really good. And I was like, I'm not in this guy's fucking league, man. I can't, I can't, whatever he's doing, I don't even know what he's doing, but I can't do that. And you know, I was in my late 40s, I think at the time was the last show I'd ever done. Maybe it was like 47. And Jennifer Beals was also in this show. Again, huge movie star back in the day. And then you realize there's a reason these people are movie stars.

And there was a level of commitment they had and artistry that they had that I just didn't, I was good, I was solid, but I didn't have that. And it just was like, this is not my zone of genius. This is my zone of excellence, but I need to go find my zone of genius. And I knew what it was.

speaker-0 (34:21.934)

I think that's the highest level of accomplishment actually. When you can strive for something and then finally get to a point where you're like, I don't need this anymore. Like that's an incredible place to, maybe it feels scary at the moment, but like reflecting back, I feel like it's a really cool place to be. I mean, when you initially got exposed to the core energetics work, you potentially had the intention of, okay, let me bring this work to the world of Hollywood.

speaker-1 (34:35.734)

It's a great place to be,

speaker-0 (34:48.362)

if you were going to be a producer and sort of combining the two worlds. Do you think that gave you a sense of comfort or almost like internal permission to keep going down that path? Cause maybe like you had the idea of, okay, I'm not leaving acting or I'm not leaving that world, but I'm kind of just like supplementing it with this other thing.

speaker-1 (35:09.742)

I mean, was, again, I was just following something that I was interested in. But when I started acting, I actually acted in a play in college. And then the next thing I did was direct a play. And then I acted and then I directed. And when you're directing plays in college, you're also producing them. And I knew right away that I was actually a better director producer than I was an actor. But I don't know why I...

to go down the acting route and not the directing producing route. I guess because I thought I can be an actor for a little while and then that's a good way in and then I can transition into directing and producing. And it was like, I wanted to meet pretty actresses, you know? And I thought it was better to be an actor. That was also a part of it, right? So it was always in the back of my mind that I was going to...

Like it just felt like that was inevitable. So when I found this work and saw what was happening in these group dynamics and the way that this woman Anne Bradney was facilitating the groups, I thought, wow, that skill of being able to hold the complexity, the emotional complexity of these groups and sort of guide it in a way back to cohesion, but deal with the chaos. It felt very much like what a set is like.

because you have all of these people, actors and writers and directors who are all in their creative process. And so there's a lot of chaos and a lot of madness and a lot of feelings and jealousy and rivalries and insecurities. And I thought, well, I could learn this skill that this woman has and apply it to producing film and television. That would be invaluable. I'd have a real...

I'd be able to really contribute in a lot of ways. And I felt like I had good creative instincts as well, but it's like, okay, yeah, people need to be managed and I think I can do that. That was the initial impulse and it kind of still is, but what happened was I started doing workshops, facilitating workshops. And after I graduated from the training, just for fun, like to try it out and...

speaker-1 (37:28.562)

People kept saying to me, hey man, wow, you're really good at this. I think this is what you're supposed to be doing, bro. I this is what you're supposed to be doing. And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was like the reluctant hero story. I didn't really want it, but there was, you know, for whatever reason, I mean, I did, I guess, but there was that part of me, it's like, I don't, that life or whatever that is, cause it's hard, man.

It's like you're going in there with people's trauma and pain and to hold that all and to hold yourself. I mean, it's very, very challenging and it brings up a lot of things inside you and it requires an immense amount of self responsibility and commitment because if you're gonna ask people to go there to these terrifying places,

be willing to go there with them. And that means you have to be willing to go there inside yourself. Cause I can't take somebody to any place that I haven't been inside myself. And so, you're consistently challenged. So it's been, it's been great for me, but you know, as you can imagine, there's always that part of it's like, yeah, I don't want to do that. I want it to be easy. want, I I don't want this constant dealing with.

the complexity and the pain and then you have to find a way, you find a way to manage it. mean, I think anybody who's a therapist or a healer, over time you find a way to have boundaries with yourself and with the people you're working with, otherwise you go insane. And so I have developed that over time.

speaker-0 (39:15.598)

to lay the groundwork a little like what exactly is core energy.

speaker-1 (39:19.134)

Yeah, coronergetics is a somatic, somatic, of the body, psychotherapy uses different physical techniques, hitting, punching, kicking, breath work, stress positions, different things to get people into deeper states of feeling. We all have feelings that we hold back, that we have trouble accessing. And coronergetics has a kind of series of techniques and different exercises that help you

get to them, get to those feelings that we hold back. And the liberation of those feelings brings a greater degree of consciousness. And so obviously when we have repressed emotions, we have repressed consciousness as well. And so the name of the game is we be able to feel our feelings so we can elevate our consciousness and essentially be more free and not governed by the distortions that

happen when we have repressed emotions. It's based on the, know, the Rikian tradition and it's not just that. It's, people ask, what do you get in a room and you scream and yell and no, that's not what it can be. Some of that, but it's done very intentionally and there's a lot of talk to it. And there's direct philosophical orientation, you know, like I said, Rik and then...

Wilhelm Reich and then got into bioenergetics with Alexander Lohan and this guy, John Parakis. So there's a lineage and I think it's the shit. I think it's the best. Obviously I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't think that. And a lot of my clients are therapists, people who've gone traditional routes and then they discover this work and they're like, this is the shit. And it's like, yeah, this is the shit. It is the shit. mean, you know.

I always say, there's other things out there that are just as good and everybody's got to find their own way, but not really. That's not really what I think. What I think is like cornered jetics is in fact the shit. It is not for everybody. It is intense. But if you want to go there, there is no modality that, that can take you there quite like core. mean, fuck, fuck Iowaska. Iowaska is fuck you. Why everybody who does Iowaska, they come to my workshops. They're like, dude,

speaker-1 (41:46.072)

This is crazier and scarier than ayahuasca.

speaker-0 (41:51.67)

I've, I want to do a workshop with you. I'd be interested to do it. But what I, what I find interesting about it is that it seems like the mental, emotional and spiritual is still grounded in the physical and sensory. I think that's important for people, especially for men.

speaker-1 (42:09.848)

Yes, I think it's great for men. Men get it right away. Women get it right away, but that's why I do a lot of men's stuff because it's therapeutic. Like there's talk, but it's like, no, it's action. It's like, get up, up, I hit the fucking block and let's go. Like let your voice out. Like say what you want to say, stop holding back. know, it's, or we're wrestling or we're into our bodies in a way that's exciting and dynamic and not so.

speaker-0 (42:36.75)

Do feel like sport for you?

speaker-1 (42:38.87)

It can be, you know, it's like, it is like sport. Yeah, it's like the game is on. The second the workshop starts for me, you know, if you played sports, you you went to the practice, you're prepared, you got all the plays down and then, you know, tip off or whatever, face off, the game starts. It's like, it's a two hour improvisation. But you don't know what's coming next. You know what the other team is doing, you know? And so that's what workshops are like.

I don't know what's gonna happen. I don't plan them. I mean, I have a lot of things that I do, but doing it a long time. So I have a lot of tools in my toolkit, but I do not come in with a plan. I make it up as I go.

speaker-0 (43:23.441)

That's impressive.

speaker-1 (43:24.962)

Well, it's the only way to do it. Yeah. It's like, you gotta be in the moment. I'm trying to teach people to be present. I'm trying to teach people to let go of control. I'm kind of trying to teach people to respond to their intuition and their emotions, that that's where life is. So I have to do that. I have to be in the moment. have to, you know, like follow what's happening and go into the unknown with the group. If you wanna go somewhere unexpected,

speaker-0 (43:27.886)

You gotta be in the moment.

speaker-1 (43:54.326)

you can't be holding on to control. Again, it's not that I have a structure inside my own mind that people can feel. They can feel like I know what I'm doing and I know what I'm talking about. there's some framework. Yeah, they feel the philosophy. Like, okay, this guy knows what the fuck he's doing. All right, so he's not explaining everything, but he's explaining enough that I can ground myself into something. And...

speaker-0 (44:07.406)

Like an overarching philosophy.

speaker-1 (44:21.034)

and then take them into the unknown. I'm not, yeah, I don't want people to know what's going on, right? I want them a little bit confused. I want them a little disoriented, a little disassociated, a little bit scared. And I don't mind if people are like not happy with me or it's great, you know, like whatever, like we're gonna go, if you wanna go into the unknown, if you wanna heal.

speaker-0 (44:48.014)

You gotta bring down the conscious barriers

speaker-1 (44:49.878)

Exactly, it's gonna be uncomfortable. We're not there to have a good fucking time, but that is a good time. That's the best time. But in the midst of it, it doesn't always feel like a good time. And so I have to tolerate that. But I also hold it light, I'm very playful. Like, yes, this is my zone of genius. it's become effortless for me, which is nice.

speaker-0 (45:18.06)

That feeling that you just described right there within that work, did you ever get a taste of something like that within acting or not at all? yeah.

speaker-1 (45:25.602)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was lots of scenes I did on Gilmore Girls with Lauren Graham where we would like drop into some place and it was real. Like, and it was fun and it was being recorded. It was gonna be on TV in three weeks and you knew it was gonna have like an impact. There was moments like that that were, you know, exciting. It's like if you're a musician, right? And you're, whatever, you're playing guitar and you're learning a song and you're just trying to play it perfectly, right? And, you know, you played a hundred times and.

maybe it's great, but you don't play it perfectly. I mean, that's what acting can be like. There's not a lot of time, obviously, but every once in a while, it's like you just drop in and something takes over and it's like the scene is complete and you're like, yeah, we fucking nailed that shit. Like we got it. Like the music of the scene was just like note after note after note was just beautiful and we hit it. so those feelings, those moments, that feeling was great. But...

there's always the constraint of, yeah, the script and it's a TV show. It's a factory. It's like you're churning out process. It's a performance. But no, in the core energetics, it's like you can go anywhere and it's always surprising and it's a co-creation among the group. so it's, yeah, it's just a lot of fun.

speaker-0 (46:49.326)

before you guided people through it and you were just doing the work for yourself, what were like the key?

Like what was the results or like the moments of personal clarity and insight?

speaker-1 (47:04.83)

Don't hold back. That was the game I was playing in every workshop, in every moment. Where am I holding back? And the invitation by the facilitator was, know, don't hold back, right? Don't hold back anything. It's like, well, that's quite an invitation when you think about it, because we hold back things all the time. Hold back saying things, hold back things that we, you know, that we think and both good and bad, light and dark, right? I might hold back my love or my attraction.

or I might hold back my judgment, my cruelty, right? Like I have impulse where, you know, just like, fuck that guy. You know, whatever. And it's like, wait, I don't have to hold back anything. I can just like say everything. It's kind of like, you know, the only place I had permission to do that was really in hockey where it's like, I can go on the ice and be like a fucking pure animal and it's all good.

I can scream and yell and fuck you to my own teammates, to the other team. Like I could just be savage and fully alive. And it's all welcome. It's all good because we all agreed essentially to this. Well, this was what the environment that this woman Anne Bradney created, which is like, no, you can... And so when you have a group of people not holding back, you think it's gonna turn into chaos and it does, but this woman was able to sort of guide that chaos into some kind of...

cohesion or unity or find the intelligence in it and bring it to bring it somewhere like a story and and and which makes sense. It's like held back energy creates distortion. And so in order to you have to you have to bring everything out into even if it's distorted, even if it's mean or cruel, it has to come out in order to be

seen and understood and felt and to see what's underneath it. So yes, people say, well, you're underneath your anger, you know, is pain. It's like, yeah, but I have this fucking anger. I have to go through the layers first. I can't just get to the pain. So I have to go like, fuck you before I can really feel the hurt underneath it. And I just found that very exciting. And so that was always the game. Like I would score myself at the end of every session. Like, did I hold back anything?

speaker-1 (49:23.736)

that I hold back? And obviously you have to have some discernment, can't, know, just barfing up all over the place, but something important, something that felt relevant, something where my body was shaking or I had some feeling in the pit of my stomach where I wanted to say something and I didn't say it. And so that, and that's kind of how I try to live my life. Like where am I holding back? Where am I not following my impulses? And am I willing to live from that place?

and not really know what's gonna happen.

speaker-0 (49:54.476)

once you do. So balancing that out. it seems like within this work, it's largely within a group setting that you like to do.

speaker-1 (50:02.638)

Yes, yeah. I mean, I do one-on-one, but the group is where the action is.

speaker-0 (50:07.47)

So balancing that with your own personal experience. So you lived in Idlewild, California for 18 months and you've shared that that was largely a time of isolation. What did that 18 months teach you about yourself?

speaker-1 (50:20.366)

Yeah.

speaker-1 (50:26.126)

that I need other people, that I need to be around other people more than anything. I was always a lone wolf and I mean, I had lots of friends and community, that I, yeah, I couldn't, I can't be on my own. And I can be, obviously I did it and I'm probably better on my own than a lot of people, but it really,

humbled me to this idea that I, that I need, I really do need other people. need community, that I can't do it alone. And I think that was an image that I had in my mind. I still struggle with that. That I need to ask for help. All of that. I think that came to a head. And, and also that I felt sort of psychologically and physiologically almost ill from

spending too much time alone and then discovered that that is actually a thing. And then we're all interconnected and then I need people. The problem is when you need people, can be betrayed by people, you can be hurt by people. And I think there was a way that I was protecting myself for a long time, keeping, you know, have connections, but keeping people a little bit at bay. there's always that part of me, it's like, fuck it, I just wanna go into the woods and live by myself.

build a lot of cabin and that's it. I'll be good, but I wasn't good. I have to be around other people and I have to risk the vulnerability that comes from needing.

speaker-0 (52:09.038)

Did you know going into it that it was... Is that the reason why you did it? Like you knew it was gonna be a lot of alone time or is just naturally I told it like-

speaker-1 (52:15.16)

I like, I was, I had officially retired from acting. This was the first time in 30 years where I didn't have to live in LA or New York or Vancouver or Toronto, like a hub of acting. But for me, was LA. And I thought, well, where I can live anywhere now, which was nice feeling. And where do you want to live? And I was like, well, I want to live in the mountains. Cause I love the mountains. And I started thinking about, where would that be? And you know,

Boise, Idaho, because I'd driven through there and I thought it was great. Colorado, I don't know. And then someone mentioned Idlewild and I went up and I'd never been there, I'd heard of it. Obviously it's two and a half hours just outside LA towards Palm Springs. And I got up there and there was a synchronicity that happened. The woman who owned the house was a big fan of, she bought the house because of Under the Tuscan Sun, which was a movie that I was in. And I had just gotten back from

visiting my dad in Saskatchewan and her ex-husband was a dentist who was first stationed in Saskatchewan. I mean, it was just like, what? So I, you know, I live a lot by synchronicities, you know, and by the signs. And so, yeah, I was like, okay, I gotta come up here. That's it, I'm here. And I loved it. I mean, it was great, but I, you know, I had to come down from the mountain and come back into the world at a certain point. And it was also right before COVID hit.

speaker-0 (53:42.168)

getting deeper into those synchronicities, how does faith play a role in your life?

speaker-1 (53:48.502)

It's everything. mean, I...

That's really the only thing I think about. If I'm having anxiety or fear or uncertainty, it's like, okay, I guess I'm not trusting God. And so then it's like, well, what would happen if you trusted God? Just trust, like have faith, have faith, have faith that things are gonna work out. So I'm practicing faith all the time. And I feel like I'm reasonably, my faith is strong.

reasonably surrendered, but you know, I'm human. My ego wants what it wants and wants it on the timeline that it wants it. And my mind wants to sort of organize things so that I can feel internally safe. And so I get caught up sometimes, but more and more through just, you know, conscious intention and different practices, I really try to live from a place of surrender.

and I'm just having faith and that my life is not really my own and that there's another order that's happening that I can't comprehend. And if I pay attention to what's happening inside me, you know, the intuitions, the impulses, and pay attention to the signs that are happening outside me and I just follow all of that, that everything will take care of itself.

speaker-0 (55:15.352)

Did you have a taste of that while you were an actor or did they largely come after your acting career?

speaker-1 (55:20.462)

I made that decision when I was my mid-20s, like that I was gonna live off my intuition. I don't know why. I mean, was something that happened that I saw, there was somebody that I knew that was like lived exclusively from their intuition. And there was something about them that I was really drawn to as fascinated by. It was this modern dancer, this woman, a roommate of a girlfriend. And I was mesmerized by her.

I don't know, her beingness. There was something about her. was like, who is this creature? And yes, she lived completely based on her intuition and her dreams. And I was like, what? I just, it was so strange to me. And I was like, I want to live like that. And so I made the decision, you know, do I do it perfectly? No, but I try and that's my intention. And I do, pay attention, I cultivate it. I pay attention to it. I don't really believe

I mean, humans aren't rational. Like my rational mind is not, I don't believe in it. It hasn't served me well. yeah, I mean, I guess it sounds crazy, but yeah, if I'm confused, ask for signs and then I usually get them.

speaker-0 (56:40.664)

You shared earlier that the work that you're doing right now.

Maybe it's not what you continue to do. Maybe this is just another chapter for you. And obviously combining that with your intuition. And let me know if this is a performative question, but where do you see that intuition taking you or what's your hypothesis?

speaker-1 (57:02.456)

Where am I going next? I don't know. I was thinking about it this morning. I don't know. Again, I'm trying not to make plans because I think it's dangerous, but my mind wants to. There's some dissatisfaction that I'm feeling, not dissatisfaction, but like a yearning for something else or something different. Something maybe a little bit more creative.

speaker-0 (57:28.098)

similar feeling to when you were in acting.

speaker-1 (57:31.566)

Yeah, in some way I've mastered this game. I can walk into a workshop, like I've got this down. Like there's no tension for me. It doesn't matter what happened. The whole group could turn on me and start screaming like you're the worst guy, you're an asshole. Whatever the fuck could happen, 50 people. I'm just like, whatever. Like I can handle it, right?

which is a great feeling, because I could not handle that 10 years ago, but now I can. And so I guess there's some way, once you master something, that you, what's the next challenge? Like where's the edge? What's scary for me? And so there's some things in my mind. I mean, I can feel it as I'm talking about it. There's some things that I'm thinking about that I probably won't name, but that projects or expansion that scare me.

take me out of my comfort zone that I don't know if I could succeed at. And so it's something like that, some new level of the game. I mean, I'm sure I'll continue to do what I do, but to be honest, I think that I would like to take the skills that I've learned through being a facilitator and a therapist, although I'm not a licensed therapist, but it's essentially what I do. Those skills,

I would like to figure out a way to apply them in another area because I think they are universal skills and useful in a lot of different places. So I think there's something they wanna take them and apply them somewhere else in some new direction or new challenge. It's not specifically about therapy, but maybe train other people in what I do. Cause there's a lot of people like, how do you do what you do?

And can you teach it? there's some interest in that, but yeah, like working with coaching clients and leading workshops, I can feel that that's, yeah, it just doesn't have the same juice for me anymore.

speaker-0 (59:36.814)

of respect for being open to it. mean, easier said than done.

speaker-0 (59:43.47)

Does it feel like discomfort when those types of feelings arise?

speaker-1 (59:50.2)

discomfort of like, want to change or something. Yeah.

I think I put a demand on myself.

speaker-1 (01:00:02.766)

Yeah, I get anxiety. I get anxiety and then I try to figure it out. That's the problem. And so I just have to let go into it. yeah, there's always, listen, this is what life is. And you're a young guy, 30 years older than you, right? You're 27. Yeah, so I'm 56. It never changes. It gets worse. I'm serious. It's like, it just keeps going.

And of course you wanna keep growing, you wanna keep changing, you wanna keep evolving. And so as soon as you hit a level or a plateau, you it's like, you you spend a year training to climb Mount Everest, you climb Mount Everest, you stand on the top for 10 minutes, you climb down, you have a week where you're like, you're really proud of yourself. And then you're like, where's the next mountain? And it's, then you're in that, that whole thing again. Exactly. And it doesn't go away. You don't, I'm 56, you think, peaked out, no.

speaker-0 (01:00:56.44)

peak is just the next bass.

speaker-1 (01:01:03.126)

And maybe, I don't know, when's it gonna stop? 70, 80, I don't know, 90, I don't know when it's, I think, I mean, I just got off the phone with a guy on a call with a guy, 71, successful guy, he's starting to think about retirement and what am I gonna do when I retire? Like it's just another chapter of something to deal with. So it just, never ends and you get used to it and there's a beauty in it. I want it to be.

simpler. I want to hit a level where everything is fine. I think that's the fantasy that I live in that a lot of people live in. I have a resentment that life is challenging and hard and this kind of never ending ordeal on some level. But which is why I'm like, you know, I have to resist it. I don't even want to fucking do this. But I think a lot of people can relate to that. But if you want to do hard things, if you want to be successful,

you're gonna be in discomfort. That's just what it is. It's not easy. These people telling you, it's like, you get in the flow and life unfolds one thing after another. That's fucking, I don't know anybody. That's a thing that people say on social media. literally, but I talk to people all day long. There's zero people that I know were not in some level being challenged all the fucking time. And so you just, get used to it.

speaker-0 (01:02:30.626)

We started the conversation with pain and I think that's a great place to wrap up. It's about choosing a pain that feels good to a degree. Yeah. David, Finn, awesome talking with you. Where can people go to learn more about you, anything else you'd like to share?

speaker-1 (01:02:38.241)

Exactly.

speaker-1 (01:02:46.606)

David Sutcliffe.com is my website. That's my name, David Sutcliffe.com. It's all there. You can find my socials on Instagram, YouTube. You can, my different offerings, get on my email list. That's the best thing to do, get on my email list. I don't, I, know, I send out every couple of weeks an email. So you'll see everything there.

speaker-0 (01:03:07.82)

Really appreciate you coming in raw and real. No performance.

speaker-1 (01:03:12.866)

great. Thanks, Tim.

speaker-0 (01:03:14.487)

Awesome.